Comments on Accountable Talk: Fixing the Schools, in Five Easy Steps! Step Five-...

I agree with your simple plan to improve the schoo...

2009-11-26T09:54:12.875-05:00

I agree with your simple plan to improve the schools. I have always wondered why the DOE doesn't do the obvious, deal with discipline, reduce class size, really end social promotion, if they truly want change.

About 12 years ago I suggested to the Delegate Ass...

2009-01-14T09:34:00.001-05:00

About 12 years ago I suggested to the Delegate Assembly that we oppose tenure for administrators - somewhat with tongue in cheek and with some humor. I made the point that a major reason teachers needed tenure was to protect us from bad admins.

I may have gotten about 5 votes because the Unity machine, which always seems to be awfully worried about those poor admins, opposed it. Maybe because so many Unity hacks become supervisors themselves.

My point was, why give strength and make it harder to remove people who were often teachers' major enemies?

After the meeting, Sandy Feldman, in the only time she ever said a word to me, came over laughing and shook my hand, saying how she agreed with what I said but couldn't do it politically. She even offered me space in the NY Teacher to make the same points.

It was an interesting insight into Sandy's roots, which were as a real teacher involved in organizing a union in the late 50's and early 60's. While she and Shanker were certainly part of the problems we face today, that spirit for what it was worth, has been missing under the Weingarten regime. One reeason why a teacher union leader should have been a real teacher. Maybe a chapter leader who has to face real problems at the micro level before tackling the bigger issues.

Some say Mike Mulgrew, rumored to be Randi's successor, has some of that. If he does, wearing the Unity crown will wear it away pretty quickly.

I'd guess you're an admin yourself, as only an adm...

2009-01-12T17:01:00.000-05:00

I'd guess you're an admin yourself, as only an admin would consider a return to teaching "ruining a career". What you mean is you wouldn't want to make less money while actually teaching children.

I honestly have not heard of a school that values teacher input in a long, long time. Can you name one? I'd like to apply. Of course, I'd never get in, because the "Open" Market is a bad joke. The idea that any teacher can transfer anywhere they want belies total ignorance of the system.

No you just want to fire all of the leaders who ru...

2009-01-11T19:25:00.000-05:00

No you just want to fire all of the leaders who run schools. I guess you would not oonsider that ruining a career. While I do agree that there are many poor admins out there, and many who followed a career path for the wrong reasons, proposing that they all be fired w/o cause is mean spirited. The best schools value teacher input and support teachers in being leaders in the classroom and beyond. The DOE allows teachers to transfer at will through the openmarket. ANY teacher can transfer to a school that fits their supervison needs and schools that support teachers.

Yes, I'm quite a bit better. I may give a shot to ...

2009-01-11T18:43:00.000-05:00

Yes, I'm quite a bit better. I may give a shot to an anonymous poster, but I have never tried to ruin a good teacher's career, or filed false charges against anyone. Many admins have.

If someone comes to a teacher blog, and asks whether teachers would be OK with being hired by children, what treatment should that person expect? I find it utterly disrespectful to imply that a 7 year old could accurately assess the skills of someone with a master's degree. And in your post, you put quotation marks around the word "evil", apparently in an attempt to make it seem that I called admins evil, and I did not.

Regardless, I see no need to get rid of tenure under any circumstances. As things now stand, teachers can be fired at will for three years before they receive tenure. I can spot a bad teacher in three minutes. Tenure protects proven teachers from ill political winds.

If your system was put into place, would you agre...

2009-01-11T17:53:00.000-05:00

If your system was put into place, would you agree to give away tenure? There would be no need for protection for "evil" administrators. Would you allow your committee of teachers to fire at will? Further, by your previous post, if you intend on insulting those who disagree with you....are you any better than those people you wish to fire?

Anon 11:29:

I assume you must be an adminis...

2009-01-11T14:26:00.000-05:00

Anon 11:29:

I assume you must be an administrator. Not just because of the tenor of your comment, but also the fact that you can't spell, use apostrophes, or write in complete sentences.

You seem to have missed the fact that as things now stand, adult admins hire adult teachers. Under my proposal, adult teachers would hire adult teachers. Under your proposal, children would hire adult teachers. So you see the difference?

Whatever your anti-teacher animus, please leave it at the door. It's not our fault if they made you wear that pointy cap in school. Time to get over it.

I would agree...but lets take it further...lets le...

2009-01-11T11:29:00.000-05:00

I would agree...but lets take it further...lets let parents choose their kids teachers. Better yet...lets let the students run the building, they always make decisons in the best interst of themselves, they will tell us what they want and we will provide it. If they dont want a teacher at all we can save the money on that too. Just do the math. Imagine the look on a teqchers face when they faced a iring committee with their students on it...priceless

It's fascinating to me that you've got many more l...

2009-01-10T15:35:00.000-05:00

It's fascinating to me that you've got many more links to this post than commenters on it.

I'm not so negative on administrators as you -- but not much less. I spent many years in business, and frankly, if any of my business bosses had been so bad at building management as most school administrators, I'd have just called the health department and shut the place down (in many places schools are exempt from usual health department and OSHA rules . . . and they say teachers have an aggressive lobby effort!).

It would be nice to have someone who would worry about the things teachers need to do their jobs, instead of trying to tell teachers what they should have done two weeks ago.

Elections work well. So do limited terms. Universities get department heads from the teaching ranks, and then many return. Why not do it that way in high schools?

Nice thought provoker.

Sounds like administrators need better supervision...

2009-01-10T09:04:00.000-05:00

Sounds like administrators need better supervision - how about applying some sound business practices, like a 360 degree review, in which all direct reports (as well as peers and superiors) have a role in the data collection?

I think your idea has merit - teachers need a strong voice in how a school is run - but ultimately you would throw the baby out with the bathwater. No school leader can ever please everyone, but a rudderless ship will eventually drift somewhere unsavory for all. There is plenty of research that demonstrates my point. Read anything by Terrence Deal or Michael Fullan.

School leadership is a much more complex job than you let on. If you have an ax to grind with a particular school leader, it's upon you to market your skills and find a job elsewhere with a stronger leader. Students are counting on it.

You're right--the classroom is where real leaders ...

2009-01-09T21:42:00.000-05:00

You're right--the classroom is where real leaders are needed. Someone, though, has to determine who gets to lead those classrooms. Let the custodians buy the paper towels. You need good people to find and retain good teachers.

I just don't feel that I'm anymore qualified than ...

2009-01-09T18:18:00.000-05:00

I just don't feel that I'm anymore qualified than my principal at ordering toilet paper for the boy's bathroom or those sand-papery paper towels for the teacher's lounge. I'd hate to be interrupted in the middle of a lesson by an irate colleague who wanted to take me to task for not filling the Snapple machine. SO I'd leave those things to a building manager. But perhaps you're on to something--if it could be given as per session, we might not need a business person at all.

My main point is that teachers should be running things, especially the educational end of things. As Norm points out, most admins were incompetent to middling teachers, so it seems insane to allow them to become the educational leaders of our schools.

The classroom is where the real leaders are needed.

I agree with NYC educator. Let the classroom teac...

2009-01-09T17:52:00.000-05:00

I agree with NYC educator. Let the classroom teachers make the day-to-day decisions and the budgetary process.

I don't know about replacing them with the busines...

2009-01-09T16:10:00.000-05:00

I don't know about replacing them with the business people, actually. I think it would be better to have teachers do these things, maybe for a stipend or as comp time or both.

I have to say, though, that I've had and met some very good administrators. It's unfortunate that there are those teachers who chose it to "escape from the classroom," because those who couldn't hack the classroom don't make good supervisors either.

Boy are we on the same page. Solutions are so much...

2009-01-09T09:34:00.000-05:00

Boy are we on the same page. Solutions are so much about trusting teachers to run things. I have always believed that. The entire initial impetus behind Education Notes starting in 1996 was to push in this direction. What surprised me was that the UFT leadership seemed so uncomfortable with this concept- Randi actually started to say something to me like, "How can we trust teachers...." and then stopped in mid-sentence. I had just made the point to her that almost every administrator was either incompetent or power driven and †he ones who were there to help the teachers were few and far between, they might as well not be there. She said she agreed - but she always says that.

(In 1979 when the district pulled our long-time principal and all the APS out of the building in a political move, a few teachers actually took charge and made sure stuff got done. Same a few years later when both admins were out and the Disrict sent over a stick of wood.)

I proposed in the late 90's when I saw the charter school idea not as a privatization scheme but as a way for teachers to take over the schools one by one, that the UFT start an office of charter school support teachers who wanted to run schools. At the heart is that teachers choose their own admins. In europe there are some places that have elections for principal - I was in Galicia in Spain when the DOE sent a few of us there to set up a partnership with a middle school in robotics and the amazing principal we worked with had been elected to a 3 year term.

Keep up the agitation.

norm